Gay Marriage

In an effort to prevent the five or ten private messages I get a week on the issue, I’m writing this blog post. I started to post it on Facebook, but figured it would get enough traffic to be worthy of a post here instead. Besides, now I can just refer people to this URL instead of answering stupid questions repeatedly.

First off, why the hell do so many people each week ask me that question? What makes ANYONE think I’m a reputable source from which to determine your own opinion. Either you want to say “Good, I agree” or you want to be able to say “Tommy hates gays.” Either way, why do people that don’t know me care? I’m not running for political office. I don’t need to campaign either way on gay issues.

Having said that – My view on gay marriage – My view on gay marriage is that I wish people would stop asking me about my view on gay marriage. But since is appears you’re NOT going to stop And if I have one, as long as I’m not tossing it about Facebook and prosthelytizing it, why would you care what I think about it? Since thousands of people DO seem to care, I’ve given it some serious thought before answering. Either way I’m guaranteed to offend someone, so I might as well get it out of the way.

Personally, I’m a Christian, so I’m going to get deep here for a moment. Follow along carefully before you posit your own thoughts.

The act of two people (of any sex) choosing to live together socially, for a variety of reasons, goes back thousands of years. It’s a social construct that has roots WAY back in history and I could list hundreds of anthropological reasons for it. (safety in numbers, splitting tasks, companionship, etc) So, two people choosing to live together and consider themselves mates is a theme as old as the hills. Let’s agree on that much. That act or choice of two people sticking together for these reasons has no specific roots in the the bible, so let’s leave that out of it for the purposes of this conversation. Cohabitating or mating for life is an act of nature. People do it. Gibbons monkeys do it. Swans do it. So do vultures, angelfish, wolves, albatrosses, termites, voles, doves, some forms of worms, and even bald eagles. Many animals pick a mate and stick with them for reasons of their own, to share a dwelling, split up tasks, and to provide companionship, raise yound, defend one another, make life more interesting, etc. Can we agree on that much?

The WORD marriage comes from an old French word, “marier” or to be wed. It was adopted into the English translation of the bible in 1611 though the word itself predates the 1611 translation by 300 years. Variations of the word, in reference to a man and woman, occurs 19 times in the bible. The word married appears 30 times. The word marrying occurs twice. Marry appears 22 times, and the verb marrieth appears 4 times.

Yes, the bible considers the “WORD” marriage to be between a man and a woman.
In fact the most base definition of the word is “The formal union of a man and a woman.” The bible, for the most part, has been an integral part of civilization for many cultures for long enough in human history to be considered a critical source of guidance for many hundreds of millions of people throughout history, myself included.

To jump forward to modern day, from what I know from news media and having quite a large number of gay friends myself, what gay people seek is recognition of their status for social, legal, medical, religious, and other reasons. They want the same benefits that “married” people have. They want to be able to adopt kids. They want partner benefits from insurance, and after-death issues. They want partner benefits or the decision to make medical decisions for a partner who is on life support. Quite honestly they also probably want a recognized social term that recognizes the union of two people of the same sex.

Fine…. how about just pick a word that doesn’t offend all the people that have viewed it as a man and woman for hundreds of years? The word “marriage” and “spouse” are both defined, and have been for almost a thousand years, as a social construct existing between a man and a woman.

Example (and yes, this is extreme on purpose, but it will maybe flip the tables a little bit). Couples that are gay are defined by that term to many. Ok fine. Well, if we started applying the word “gay” to sexual intercourse between a human and an animal, EVERY gay person would flip out! (as they should,right? That term is currently called beastiality by the way, and yes, intercourse or mating between a human and a non-human is even legal in some countries.) Gay people across the world would feel the sanctity of their status was being completely misrepresented and applied to something completely not related to what they intended when the word was adopted, and to something that MOST of us consider down right abhorrent, right?

I believe that many heterosexual people feel the same way. They feel that the word “married” is between a man and a woman. Ok..let the straight folks have their word. Pick another. Call it “hitched” or “Tied” or come up something entirely new altogether that represents the concept. Hell, call it Swiss! lol (Sleeping with in same sex) lol. It doesn’t matter what they call it. (Come to think of it, that’s funny.. Hey are you married? No, we’re swiss. *puzzled expression follows*)

I personally think most straight people fight the issue of gay marriage because they believe same-sex relations isn’t what the word itself means, and they’d be right, according to the dictionary and human history.

If gay couples petitioned for rights under a term or word hat DID NOT offend so many people heterosexual people, they’d PROBABLY have a greater chance of the non-gay community signing off on the deal in Washington.

Personally, I have no opinion either way. I consider marriage to be between a man and a woman, but then I also think bacon should be a flavor of ice cream offered at Baskin Robbins. I have MANY gay friends and their friendship means the world to me, so I’ve avoided this conversation online for many years because there is no right answer. Why would I want to offend the people I love and consider friends just to answer to a few of you I don’t know and could care less about? And why does anyone want to know my opinion on it anyway? My gay friends don’t care what I think about it. They’re gay. I’m straight. Some have long hair. I have short hair (and grey  -_- ). They don’t look down on me for my hair style. It’s just not an issue. The point is, none of us care one whit about the other’s sexual preference – except to the extent that it makes for some REALLY interesting conversations on my back patio sometimes!!

So, here’s my advice on the issue – and you can take it for what it’s worth – stop trying to change the historical meaning of a word that has appeared in dictionaries for almost 1,000 years. Rather than change the dictionary, just pick a new word.

Those that want to advocate recognition of a social status reflecting the same social, medical, and other benefits afforded “married” couples should have a national campaign..seriously.. a HUGE one… and I mean FRICKIN HUGE! Crowd source the idea amongst the millions of gay people world-wide. No straight people get a vote… Let Ellen run the media campaign! Run a year long campaign and come up with a new WORD for the union you seek. After all, in human history, it’s a relatively new social construct you’re wanting to create – the formal recognition of two men or two women to have all the same benefits and entitlements of couples that are “married.”

And while we’re at it, I swear to GOD I’ll banhammer the first idiot that says “then what’s your view abortion or women’s rights?” I’ll answer that one too – real simply. I don’t have a vagina… so I shouldn’t be allowed to legislate one. Fair enough?

I’ve said my peace on the matter. What I do NOT want, is 50 million Facebook message dumped in my inbox telling me that either I’m awesome or that I’m going to Hell. I don’t really care what your opinion on. My opinion on gay issues of all sorts extends no farther than how it affects the friends I have that are gay. Gay or straight, tall or short, their friendships mean more to me than the inbox replies from a bunch of people I don’t know.

If you have a comment on the issue, that’s what the comment box below is for. Use it.

Have a good day y’all!



30 thoughts on “Gay Marriage

  1. This was filled with good ideas, and your ever-present humor made it a fun read. I admire the way that you care about your gay friends. I imagine they care about you, as well.
    So file my comment as,

  2. Well said Tommy, you largely echo my thoughts on this matter. I don’t care if they choose to live in sin, just do not degrade the sanctity of Marriage, the union of one man and one woman before God.

  3. I have held the same views as you for years. I too have “gay” friends and we came to this conclusion as I am sure you did years ago. A new term would eliminate the issues but it sadly isn’t about the status or rights its about the word marriage. Political pundents and activists have an agenda and it is to diminish the meaning and sanctity of marriage as a status and as you correctly stated a defined word.

    On that note I do feel that you hold and express the views of a majority of Americans and I am sure your fellow North Carolinians (not sure what you call yourselves, in Michigan we are Michiagnders or Michiganians)as well. Your claim to fame may have come from some totally different topic but as we both know God has a plan for everyone and maybe his was to bring you into the light to be a beacon of sanity and common sense where it has sadly faded. At least consider it. I know if I lived in your area I would definitely be interested in supporting, following and promoting our common beliefs and debating our differences.



  4. Well said Tommy. I actually proposed that concept to a gay friend about 4 years ago. It does seem like it would be easier to tweak the laws and tax codes to add the new word, rather than fight to change a definition that many people don’t want changed. (I suggested “garriage” as the possible new word. Then they could say they were garried.) I think the problem is that these laws governing benefits and taxes are based on sex. Why shouldn’t two people who want to commit to each other, whether or not love and/or sex is involved, be allowed to do so? What if two sisters chose to live their lives together and commit to doing so legally? They should have that right and the same benefits as a married couple as well. A relationship should not be defined by whether or not two people have sex. It should be defined based on love and/or commitment.

  5. Bravo! I’ve thought for days how I would address this if asked…I also have gay friends. Call it anything but “marriage” and get on with it! Get your legal stuff. Just don’t call it “marriage.”

  6. First, I enjoy your posts very much. It is so rewarding to read the opinions of someone with common sense! An answer to your question of why people ask you these questions is that deep inside they realize you have this good sense, so your a teacher of sorts! 😉

    I agree with this post of yours as I have many gay friends also. And know what? I didn’t know some of them were gay for years because I didn’t give a dang one way or the other! 😉

  7. well, if you are going to hell, so am I. Want to get together for coffee? my treat.

    I wouldn’t tell a woman what to do with her vagina any more than I would want a woman to tell me what to do with my testicles. I don’t presume to know the ins and outs of all things female. Honestly, I have my own issues to worry about. Rock on Tommy. Half the fun in reading your posts is seeing some of the idiot comments that you get.

    On the subject of marriage… who am I to tell another person that who they fall in love with is wrong?

    about that bacon flavored ice cream…

  8. Well, written Tommy. I wasn’t expecting a poorly written or narrow-minded point of view. I was almost expecting you to defend traditional marriage (knowing that you’re a Christian) and take the religious view.

    But then I thought “Hmm… This guy’s pretty dang smart. He thinks deep, and thinks long. He also tends to do the unexpected at times. ”

    And you did. I wasn’t expecting you to present this take on things. Heck, I’d never even considered this point of view! But You’re right. I wouldn’t say I agree 100%, but I agree with you point of view way more then I disagree with it.

    Once again, keep on keeping on. (You would anyway without me telling you. But you know what I mean!) Loose the “weeds” as my friend calls them — the people who suck the energy out of you.

    Much love and respect Tommy!

    • Thanks for the kind words Andrew. I’m one of those that has differing opinions on this subject depending on the mental state I’m in at the time. If I’m in a deeply religious state of mind and you were to ask me what I thought about it, I’d say definitively that “marriage” is between a man and a woman.. but that’s only the WORD marriage. If you were to ask me the question without that word in it, it came to me that I have absolutely no care one way or the other. “Hey, me and Joe love each other. We want to spend the rest of our lives together. I want Joe to be able to be put on my insurance and and to make emergency medical decisions for me if I were incapable of that. While we’re at it, I want Joe to be able to file joint-taxes with me, and we want to live in the same house.. like forever… What do you think, Tommy?”

      “Umm, ok.. can you pass me the ketchup?” (That’s about as deep as my mind goes if you were to ask it that way.)

      My mother is a deeply religious woman. I know without asking what her views on same-sex marriage would be. When you put just about any Christian person to the question of “what do you think of same-sex marriage?” you’re asking a baited question. If they choose to live their lives strictly by the bible, or to govern their hearts and minds by the bible, then the answer to the question would HAVE to be that they disagree with it from a fundamentally religious standpoint. Marriage is a religious institution, not a cultural or social one. That’s your fault for asking a question that has it’s basis in a fundamentally religious ceremony. The term marriage is revered as a sacred union amongst most any Christian. When you ask a religious question, there’s usually only one religious answer you’re going to get from each respective religion or religious-based-culture.

      However, most gays I know aren’t asking for permission for others to accept them from a religious standpoint. They’re asking for equal treatment under the law. Our country specifically separates religion and law. The two sides of the argument shouldn’t ever have to meet. Just call it something else altogether and you render the religious arguments, even my own, pointless.

      As to whether a two men or two women should be partners from a religious standpoint has no bearing on the conversation gay people (far and large) are trying to have. They want political and legal systems changed to suit their lifestyle. Well hell, in the last 100 years we’ve changed laws and politics to reflect improvements for women, for black people, for immigrants. Why the hell we couldn’t change a few forms for legal, tax-paying, adults who want to live together is beyond me.

  9. Tommy, this is why so many people ask your opinion: you have such a knack for looking at things like this in a unique way, and getting people to challenge there own thoughts on various topics. Even if you echo the same end opinion, your path there can help clarify to someone who thinks they agree but can’t quite explain why.

    …and of course there’s the handful that are just looking for another reason to tell your to GTH and/or threaten you 🙂

  10. I do not believe in same sexual partners due to the original plan of God. Homosexuality is a sin..but God is the judge sadly if you read the Boble…the wages of sin is death…and if our country does not turn from its wicked ways…He will not/does not hear our prayers. I too have Gay family and Gay friends. I do not judge them But I will not vote for any thing that goes against God. This world is not Controlled by God..he gave it over..He WILL have control it is written. The greatest love..not sex. Love is a verb. All in all…I agree to disagree. If there isn’t a relationship with God…We don’t know who He is as our creator! I did not have a relationship with Him until the age of 28. I’m not perfect..but there is a definite change in my heart that only He has done..I can’t do it myself!

    • For the most part I agree with your philosophy on it Kellie, though we could go down the road of “what defines sin” for days on this one. The bible also calls it a sin to defile the body because it’s the temple of God. Smoking cigarettes pollutes the body, so does most any drug use, and alcohol destroys the liver. The bible makes NO distinction on degrees of sin, with the exception of apostasy. So, let’s assume we believe homosexuality is a sin. From a Christian standpoint, I’d have to back that statement up and say yes, I agree. However, smoking is a sin and I do that will full knowledge that it’s bad for me. We all sin and come short of the Glory of God.

      However, back to the actual point.. the idea of homosexuals wanting the same legal rights as couples who are married isn’t a Christian argument, because it isn’t a religious one. They aren’t asking for acceptance to your church. They aren’t asking for me to personally put my seal of approval on what they choose to do with their personal lives. They’re asking for a LEGAL issue… nothing my religion has an right to keep from them.

      The United States maintains separation of Church and State for various reasons, and whether I agree with that or not doesn’t matter. This is one of those issues where my religious views have no place.

  11. Tommy, I don’t know you and I realize that you don’t care what my opinion of your opinion is. However, your opinion is not consistent with Biblical TRUTH. This issue actually has GREAT IMPORTANCE, both for our society AND our FAITH. Certainly, what 2 people do in the privacy of their own home is not what I jump out of bed thinking about in the morning, but there is a bigger issue here. Everybody is I assume, aware if the “slippery slope” argument. If you allow this, then THIS will happen. Many people dismiss this argument, but having been posting on blogs for upwards of 15 years, I can tell you that its a totally valid way of looking at this issue.

    30 years ago homosexuality was a PRIVATE activity for the most part. Few homosexuals came “out”. There was no question that it was deviant behavior. This was recognized by EVERY psychological association in existence. What changed? People like YOU acting like it is NORMAL. It isn’t normal or natural behavior. It is aberrant behavior. I don’t advocate stoning in the public square or ANY TYPE of violence directed toward gays. Following Jesus does NOT PERMIT such action. PERIOD.

    That said, I also don’t advocate society trying to make what is abnormal, normal. The SIN of homosexuality is no better or worse than any other sin.
    Should people who steal from others flaunt this openly? Should murderers get special rights for their sin? Should we be proud and brag about it on facebook when we are unkind to others? Of course not. The attempt to “normalize” homosexuality by changing the definition of marriage is akin to normalizing any other sin. Giving homosexuals special rights really is a slippery slopes. 30 years ago when we had sodomy laws the argument was “why should we care about what people do in the privacy of their own homes?” Many of us then argued that doing away with sodomy laws was the first step onto the slippery slope. We were absolutely right. We predicted what was going to come from that and we were right. Now we are actually REQUIRING people to ACCEPT homosexuality as normal even to the point of violating first amendment rights of freedom to exercise our faith as we see fit. We are forcing religious organizations to NOT discriminate by refusing to hire people who are openly involved in the sin of homosexuality and to cover so-called “partners” on insurance policies and on and on. 30 years ago people said this would NEVER HAPPEN, but it always does.

    So what will be next? Polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia? Just around the corner.Unfortunately, it is probably too late to shove them back into the closet, but I hope we will at least come to our senses on THIS issue and thus slow down the slide on the slippery slope

    • Chuck,
      ANY opinion is important, and whether I agree with yours or not, I respect your right to have it, and to share it. If I didn’t, I would’nt have allowed this post open for comments. I encourage discussion on the subject. The “slippery slope” argument is one I fully understand. Just look at how it’s affected gun rights lately. If we allow them to to take this, then they’ll take that later, etc. I definitely see where that could go.

      Thirty years ago, homosexuality MIGHT have been a private issue here in the US, but it’s been practiced openly in other cultures for thousands of years. I’m also not trying to be part of an argument to redefine what is or is not “normal.” Do I think it’s normal? Well, I guess no. It goes against my Christian beliefs, but so does drinking, smoking, and some types of music, though I do all those from time to time. And again, I’m NOT advocating changing the definition of Marriage. In fact, I personally 100% agree that marriage is between a man and a woman, as a religious institution. Again though I have to point out that the homosexual community isn’t asking for any kind of religious right. They’re asking (far and large) for the LEGAL rights that some heterosexual couples have; the right to make life affecting decisions for one another in the event one of them is on life-support, the right to file jointly on their taxes, the rights of survivorship for the estates of one another upon death, and more.

      None of those rights they’re asking for are religious ones. None of them are connected in ANY way to my religion. They’re LEGAL rights our country has given to people over the years. From a LEGAL standpoint, I can’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to have them. I think fat people that weigh 400 pounds should be forbidden from eating fast-food seven days a week. I mean for God’s sake, we live in a country where people are literally too stupid not to eat themselves to death. I could wrap that up under the religious tenet of prohibiting gluttony because it’s a sin, but you don’t see us Christians jumping up and down about that issue do you? In fact the ONE state that tried that, New York, had it knocked back down as unconstitutional.

      What I suggested did NOT change the definition of marriage. I specifically said I was against that. What I proffered was a way for the LEGAL rights of two people to be regarded just like the legal rights of OTHER people. The rights married people have in the US are not tied at all to the bible. The IRS laws governing married couples didn’t come from the Old Testament. Neither did the medical laws in existence here in our country today.

      To further my argument, you mentioned the laws regarding sodomy. You DO realize that sodomy can be practiced between a married husband and wife, right, or for that matter a boyfriend and girlfriend? Under what pretense would you like to justify the courts having any say in the way a man and woman have intercourse? But yet it’s OK to legislate the way two men or two women have intercourse? Religious feelings on the matter aside; it’s neither my business nor anyone else’s to put our noses in someone else’s bedroom for the purposes of determining what is and isn’t right.

      Now, on the issue of forcing religious organizations to accept homosexuality, we agree. That issue has already come under fire and I think it should. If you are a Christian-based organization, then I personally agree with your right to hire employees that reflect your beliefs. If it is your religious belief that your company doesn’t not willingly hire homosexuals, then that’s OK with me. If you choose not to offer medical benefits to homosexuals, I’m in agreement with that if it’s based on your religious views. But that’s my PERSONAL opinion. We already impose heavy fines in the medical world for other things.. such as smoking. I smoke cigarettes. There are THOUSANDS of companies who will fire you if you smoke, even OFF the clock, because it affects their insurance premiums. However, that’s legal… I don’t have to like it, but I DO have the option not to work for those people – a right which I exercise. If a company wants to fire an individual because of their sexual preference, that’s their choice.

      I have a lot of homosexual friends from every walk of life. Just making this post, I’ve offended one of them whose opinion means a lot to me, which I regret terribly, but I can’t change it now. My point is, the bible says it is our job to witness, to spread the word of God. It also tells us not to judge others, unequivocally. If you want to look at homosexuals and only see the “sinner” then I hope you treat everyone who smokes, drinks, plays rap music, and doesn’t come to church the same way.

      I personally wish they’d outlawed cigarettes long before I was born, because it’s my worst addiction, but they didn’t. I don’t go around hating smokers or actively trying to prevent them from having legal rights. I don’t wish all alcoholics lost their rights because they’re sinners. I don’t think gluttonous fat people should lose their medical insurance. Why should I have an opinion on how two men file their taxes?

  12. And I just signed onto to see if the folks wanting an appointment with me were the same legal shield TJ used and found this – another well thought out discussion. Thanks for some good reading.

  13. I totally agree with you chuck agreeing with this is wrong years ago christians would of fought for what they belive in and about same sex marriage in all 50 states and i see none of the christains today doing it today and i honestly think the christian that don’t say anything is because there scared what the society would say or they won’t say anything because they think it is alright but it is not it is a sin i mean i am 16 and i know what right is and what is wrong and it sad to see that there is adults that stuck to there morals for years and all of a sudden changing it does not make sense and this is what Satan what he wants chaos and sin to be accepted i just think homosexuality is a sin but i don’t see it fit that some people curse them or tell them to die or family that alienate themselves from them because there gay and that just wrong there human beings too but from what i was taught and what i believe i just disagree with the homosexuality

  14. FOR GAYS ONLY: Jesus predicted that just before His return as Judge, there will be a strange, spontaneous, mind-twisting fad – a global steamroller notable for its speed, boldness, violence, and impudent in-your-face openness. In Luke 17 He called this worldwide craze the repeat of the “days of Lot” (see Genesis 19 for details). By helping to fulfill this worldwide mania quietly coordinated by unseen spirit beings, gays are actually hurrying up Christ’s return to earth and making the Bible even more believable!
    They’ve actually invented strange architecture: closets opening not on to bedrooms but on to Main Streets where kids can see naked men having sex in “Madam” Nancy Pelosi’s San Francisco Brothel District. We wonder how soon S.F.’s underground saint – San Andreas – will get a 10-point jolt out of what goes on over his head (see the dire prediction about cities in Revelation 16:19)!
    What’s really scary is the “reprobate mind” phrase in Romans 1:28. A person can sear his conscience so much God turns him over to S, the universal leader of evil who can turn such a person into Mr. Possessed with a super-human strength that many cops together have trouble restraining.
    Remember, gays don’t have to stay bound to their slavery. Their emancipation is found in a 5-letter name starting with J – no, not James or Julia. As soon as they can find out the all-powerful J name, gays will really start living!

    • Even as a Christian, I have a hard time even knowing where to begin to respond to that comment. Now “gays” are actually granted the power to make God move up his time table? That’s an impressive lot of power right there. Nevermind, I can’t even honestly come up with a response to this that doesn’t offend even me.

      Lucie, you are the exact type of Christian that gives us a bad name. Christ says a lot of things about a lot of subjects in the bible, but extremist concepts like heterosexuality infusing someone with Hulk-like powers are the kinds of things that those opposing Christianity can latch on to. Your post was engendered to “enlighten” homosexuals I suppose?? Instead, you just gave any anti-Christian one more stone to throw at us. If you truly cared about converting someone, of any sexual persuasion, to your point of view, this certainly wasn’t the way to do it. Any truth in your statements were overshadowed by an obvious, almost zealous, hatred – a thing NOT preached in the bible. I truly almost didn’t approve the post, but I feel like all sides deserve to be heard, so I allowed it.

      I mean you no personal disrespect ma’am, but I think you could have found a better way to speak your mind on the subject.

  15. Picking another word won’t work and it’s not a new idea — try Googling “garriage” or “garried” (the most obvious choice for a new word depicting homosexual mating — only one letter change — and everyone will automatically know what it means). The philosophical/cultural/spiritual objectives of the gay marriage movement (not necessarily particular gays) are to destroy the historical and pervasive “Christian” world-view concerning morality (not just gay marriage) — not simply to secure a few additional civil rights hitherto reserved for marrieds. There is a much larger agenda here and you have to step back a bit to see it. It’s like squinting through your rifle scope and just seeing a fly — open your eyes and you’ll see the fly is perched on a bear.

    And taking a stance on the gay marriage issue, isn’t about hating or loving individual gays or “tolerating” their lifestyle and not discriminating against them materially. If you believe that homosexuality is a desirable or even neutral lifestyle option for your sons or daughters, and that God considers it as innocuous as choosing your hairstyle, then by all means, support gay marriage.

    If, on the other hand, you believe homosexuality is perversion of God’s natural order, and harmful to human beings both now and in the hereafter, and a sin that God abhors (like all other sin), then normalizing and mainstreaming homosexuality ought not to be something that you support.

    As for our dear gay friends, can we not love the sinner, but hate the sin? “…keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.” If you are persuaded that God does not favor homosexuality as an active lifestyle, how is it merciful to turn a blind eye as your homosexual friends’ march toward perdition? Surely you would warn them if you knew they were treading a path rife with vipers, but this is different — or is it? If we are not hypocrites, then the love for our homosexual friends ought to produce anguished prayers of intercession, if not compassionate pleas for repentance, shouldn’t it?

    I pray that God will open our eyes and hearts to see homosexuals the way he sees them, and love them the way he loves them, and that we will have the courage to act on the the impulse of God’s love that flows through us. Amen.

    I will not make arguing against gay marriage a focal point of my life. However, I neither would not treat it as inconsequential.

  16. Tom, do u believe in same sex marriage. To each his own, buy I certainly don’t. I come from a good Christian home, and for the life of me for which I don’t understand, I am Gay. I don’t have a partner or anyone, but I still don’t believe in same sex marriage. That is NOT the way of the world. I do believe it is NOT God’s way and I truly wish I wasn’t this way, but it is the way I grew up.

    • What I believe really doesn’t matter. Nothing in the debate going on in politics is about what my beliefs are. I get that question a lot, and I’m not sure why. Why would anyone, anywhere, care one iota what my beliefs are with regards to marriage? For example, if I said “Yes, I believe in same-sex marriage,” would that make you feel ok? (I’m not being sarcastic, in case it’s coming across that way. I’m being sincere here.) Really, would it matter? Would you go home tonight thinking to yourself Well, it’s ok. Tommy approves, so it’s all right! Or conversely if I disproved, would that seal the deal on how you believed yourself about it? Would me saying “No! Same sex marriage is an abomination” change your own beliefs on the matter at all?

      Personally, no. I don’t believe (from a christian standpoint) that homosexuality is a good thing. I think biblically it’s a sin. However, having stated that, the bible doesn’t lay out degrees of sin, regardless how much many Christians seem to think it does. So, let’s analyze a little…

      Homosexuality is a sin. OK.
      Smoking is a sin – it defiles the temple of God.
      Doing drugs is a sin – for the same reason.
      Murder is a sin. (We all feel comfortable with that one because only bad people do it, right?)
      Jealousy is a sin.
      Cheating on a test would be considered a sin.
      That candy bar you took when you were eight years old from the Food Lion, was a sin.
      Not giving my tithe to the Church is a sin.
      Sex outside marriage is a sin.
      Cohabitating with someone of the opposite sex outside marriage is pretty much a sin, if I remember correctly.

      So, from a religious standpoint, you’re committing a sin. Ok. Well I smoke, I’ve lived with girlfriends outside marriage, had sex before I was married, been guilty of jealousy, and probably committed many others. As a homosexual, you’re a sinner. As a straight man, I’ve just admitted to more than one myself.

      NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE are degrees of sin laid out. All sins are equally damning in the eyes of God, with the exception of apostasy.
      So, we’ve covered my religious beliefs… which I’ll say again, have no place in the legal and political discussions surrounding this subject.

      Now, my “personal” opinion…. I don’t have one. I’m not gay. Without being gay, I don’t suppose I can realistically say I understand where you’re coming from. I feel the same way about smoking. Unless you smoke, you have no idea how hard it is to quit. People just say “Eww, you’re a smoker. Gross.” I don’t care about whether or not people smoke pot, as long as they don’t do it in my house, or in my car. I don’t care if you like that I’m a smoker or not. Why do you care what I think about your sexuality? I truly don’t have an opinion on a personal level one way or the other for the simple reason that it doesn’t affect me either way.

      So my advice to people who are homo-sexual is; stop seeking approval from others. I don’t seek approval from others on how I do anything, with the exception of a few people who are very important to me. I get up each day and run my life according to my own ideals. I run my business according to my own ideals, and I raise my family according to my own ideals. What anyone else thinks has no bearing.

  17. Hi Mr. Jordan,

    First of all, I’ve been a “fan” of yours ever since I saw the video. Truth be told, you remind me a lot of my father and give me hope that the future of this country is not altogether doomed.

    That said, I respectfully disagree with your position on gay marriage. Though I agree that, legally, the issue could be solved by simply using a different word for same-sex unions, I think that the moral question is the much more important one (after all, something being legal does not have a bearing on it being morally permissible or not). The simple truth of the matter is that even if you take a minimalistic view on philosophy and ethics, same-sex marriage is still not permissible (look into my blog if you want to see my arguments for it). Though I understand that you have friends that are gay and do not want to upset them, the truth has to be upheld at any cost, even if it means becoming an outcast, even if it means dying.

    Moreover, I hope that you can clarify what you said very quickly toward the end about abortion. I would not think that someone who has shown his strong convictions as you have, would proceed to succumb to such an overused cliche on this issue. Abortion is a human rights, not a women’s rights issue. Besides that, it is quite trivial to figure out whether it is right or wrong. In the words of Mother Teresa, “If abortion is not wrong, what is?” Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you were going for?

    Thank you,
    Moder Platonist

  18. Interesting . . . this follows very closely to what I recently wrote.

    I won’t link it here because I don’t like to put links on other people’s sites.

    It is interesting reading the comments, and I don’t envy the readership you have. You recently mentioned we might not agree 100% on matters, and you are correct we hold very different beliefs . . .

    . . . what is more important, though, is honor, honesty, respect and empathy for others. I don’t think we differ much on those.

  19. Hey Mr Jordan,

    I really appreciate that u don’t give a damn about people being gay 😀 That is what true equality means !! I understand and find your opinion very deep and interesting, in fact, I myself used to think that as long as we got the social and political status, it wouldn’t matter what we called it. However, after spending years being an closeted gay atheist in an homophobic christian Chinese family and after meeting others having the similar issue, my point of view has changed. And I want to share with u some of my thoughts since you shared yours (Thank you btw, not easy for me to read >o< but it did show me the other side of the story).

    First, don't get me wrong, I think you post is very good, the FIRST time I have seen an polite, not degrading, logical and well written discussion on the definition of marriage and explained why some people would disagree with gay "marriage". Given that I am no historian or wordologist (is that a word?), I really couldn't say if the definition of marriage is between a men and a women. And sorry but as an atheist, the fact that the bible used it as such doesn't mean much to me, and the fact that I am Chinese kind of make it even more so since we clearly don't used the English word "marriage". But I do see why people would say that now thanks to you 🙂

    So, lets say the traditional definition of marriage is the union between a man and a woman. However, words like this carry meanings (symbolic often) sometime more that what it has been defined as we used them for a very long time. Particularly with words that have been used historically/in tv/in everywhere and by everyone to descried something that you want so much (or know that someday you would want so much). For example, me and my friends and even some of my family (I hope there is more?) thinks that marriage represent the commitment and love that one is giving to another (i.e. u won't marry someone happily otherwise). To not be allowed to use it feels very excluded. It sounded like: you can sit there but not too close to me. And it is drawing a very clear distinction between straights and gays based on a (I would say minor?) technicality.

    But what is more important about your marriage? the fact that u r a man and ur wife is a woman? Or the fact that u love her? I understand that picking a new word for that might solve the problem quicker (but in my experience people would find other reasons to say no). But there is a difference between "hey, lets pick a new word for it because it is fun" and "hey, lets pick a new word for it because if we don't then people would say no as it was technically wrong". If what marriage represent is the more important defining feature, then if A = B, B = C (where A = the word marriage, B = what marriage represent and C = the new word for gays) which means A = C and can be used interchangeably within the context of marriage. The fact that I can't use A instead of a new word (C) imply that people see something different with the B that is =A and the B that is =C. To me, there is no difference. I learnt the word marriage and I understand what it meant and I know this is what I want with my future (still non-existed or maybe never would….)lover. I know this is not why u think A no = C and that u don't really care!! (from what I can read in ur writing) But the fact that some people (scarily many) would constantly look for other reasons to say no to marriage equality then go back to this definition thing after all others have failed indicate that might be the case in many. They showed disgust when we used the word marriage which I think is not based on the fact that they think the definition is being changed (u will have to be very very very easily disgusted to do that) but rather "that is not the same as what the gays are having".

    I know this might seem very subjective and me being overly sensitive but as far as I know (which admitably not much), many people don't show their disgust on gays openly but rather hidden/mixed in under fancy wordings and seemingly noble reasons.(As I have seen in cases where people justifying their horrible treatment/ prejudice toward slaves, women and other minorities in the past) Because they fear would being persecuted for having different opinions.

    Nevertheless, at the end of the day if we are not allowed to call what we have ("would hopefully have" in my case…) marriage, it would likely be for reasons other than purely about the change in definition (I really would love to believe the world is full of people like you but at least from what I have seen and known, that is not the case). That to be honest does not feel right.

    So, I guess I would like to ask you. Does it really matter that much to you? That a word have been change to include what have finally be accepted as "not dangerously abnormal" (since I know some of u have problems calling us normal…). Enough that you would say no no to it? Because from where I see it, it is not that big of a deal in terms of language, difference between "gay marriage" and "straight marriage" is enough to distinguishes the two. Not to mention, the definition of words changes when needed more often than u might think. For example, the word Oxidation used to be defined as "reaction between oxygen and other compounds", but now that our understanding of chemistry evolved, it has changed to "the loss of electrons or an increase in oxidation state" to better describe what is happening. Our society is changing for the better (I hope), at least for gays and women and some other minorities. It is no longer illegal to be gay (believe it or not that was more recent than u think even in developed countries) which to me kind of like chemistry are no longer witchcraft. The more we know, the more we realized is not a big deal, it happens. As a result, things changes or rather our perception of things changes and sometimes our words. I am not asking for special treatments, I don't need all the churches/religions to accept me (would be nice if they do :P) or to have super marriage but I ask u (not u specifically of cause :D) to treat me the same way you would like to be treated. How would you feel if you have to ask for permissions from the entire country who don't know you or have any business with you before you can ask ur wife : will u marry me? For reason that it is technically not what is written on a book? (mainly due to the fact that people like you would all have been hanged or worse in the past?) Sure, u could have said : will u let me F u (which is technically right for catholic in a sense), funny as it might be, is not quite the same. Imagine not allowed to call your boy "son" because technically he is ur "adopted son" (Imagine, not true).

    I know my thoughts on this is not the best case for gay marriage (if not the worst but since others have done the good ones I guess I would do one more about how I feel) and it probably sounded kind of stupid (like: it hurt your little feeling, get over it!!). But feelings do matter sometimes. Because it is what we experience the most in life and in many times effect what we do, happiness, compassion, justice, fairness and even feeling sad for others drive people to do things. I guess what I am trying to say is that, words matter, they express how we feel and they are not just symbols that appear on a dictionary. It might be exactly what is written on the dictionary to some but to others it could mean more and sometimes a lot more. If we are changing its definition, we r not changing it for fun or to annoy others and least to take away other's right, we r hoping it would change for the better, for the word itself would be neutral and no longer says that only the love between a man and woman deserve recognition. Hope that finally, people would realized, love between a man and a hot man is not that big of a deal.

    People can still object, of-cause, people don't have to agree with our marriage (like I don't have to agree with their religion). But we should have the freedom to call what we have what we want (which is the same as everybody but reasonable of cause) like they should have the right to name their god whatever they want. I understand how some people might get upset, because it is christian thing in the bible (again, not really a valid point for me) and changing the word would be "forcing it down their throat". But would anyone banned non-christian people from celebrating Christmas? Us celebrating Christmas (with Sanda and everything on TV and stuff) didn't effect the Christmas of anyone who is religious, right? No forcing our non-religious way down anyone's throat, no? Even though we do it solely for the presents/foods/Sanda and not so much about Jesus. Same here, people don't have to agree (even after all my sad pleading!!) but on the other hand gays probably shouldn't be banned from using the word simply for that either, no?

    Finally, let me again say this again: Thank you for your blog, it's certainly really interesting and allowed me to see it from a different perspective. While I disagree (and even sad T T) with some of ur believes, I really admire ur ability to maintain level headed and write down ur opinion in such way 😀 Sadly, I can not say the same about mine but I hope this would still give u another perspective, as childish and emotionally driven as it might be. It is what a hot-headed 20 something gay man feel about the issue. Which I think some (a few?) of ur gay friends might share even though they would say is okay in front of u because they consider you a friend and don't want this to get in the way 😛

    P.S. you don't have to write all your opinions but they are interesting, that's why people ask for more 😀

  20. There are several fundamental issues with your post and subsequent comments – there are several liberal churches now that do believe that same-sex marriage is biblically approved and valid. Now, you may disagree, but surely it could prove offensive to them NOT to call same-sex relationships marriage, because that would go against their understanding of religion.

    Secondly, they asked for the legal form of marriage – not the ability to force any religious institution to religiously marry them/join them in holy matrimony. Legal marriage and religious marriage are two separate things.

    Thirdly, the reason so many gays seek ‘approval’ is because they have memories – they know how they were treated not so long ago, and still are in certain parts of the country. Historically, rejection of homosexual acts has usually been paired up with rejection of that person/hatred/etc, and only relatively recently is the ‘love the homosexual sinner, hate the homosexual sin’ become more common.

    Fourthly, let’s be honest – you don’t want the same word – even if only legally – to be used to describe both a heterosexual union as well as a homosexual one because you don’t view them as equal just different – you think the latter is sinful and deserving of eternity in hell as punishment. You can say you ‘don’t care’ all you like but you do care, and, if you’re the kind of Christian you’ve presented you as, you’d want to save their soul by diverting them from their sinful paths.

    Fifthly, the definition of marriage has changed several times over the course of history, and the church cannot be said to have a monopoly on the idea of marriage – ancient Rome had marriage, for example, which was a civil affair governed by imperial law, not to mention the idea of marraige bars, the husband having legal authority, and really, the list could go on.

    Finally, there are degrees of sin (from

    Jesus said in John 19:11, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” The context is that Judas had betrayed Jesus, and so our Lord was before Pilate who said that he had the authority to crucify Jesus. Jesus said that the one who had delivered him into Pilate’s hands had the greater sin.

    There are other verses that imply different degrees of sin. Please consider the following:

    Luke 7:41-43, “A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.”
    Luke 10:11-13, ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 “I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city. 13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.”
    Luke 12:47-48, “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

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